Interview on The True Patriot (WTOP Radio, DC)

American Strategy Program Director Steve Clemons discusses Pakistan and U.S.-Pakistan relations with WTOP Radio in Washington, DC. Please find the transcript below, and audio of the interview linked as an attachment at the bottom of the page. Visit WTOP.com for more news.

WTOP: Pakistan is facing a growing threat from Islamic extremists but President Pervez Musharraf does not want U.S. troops to join the fight against Al Qaeda on Pakistani soil. He is now warning that Pakistan will resist any unilateral military action by the U.S .against militants sheltering in its lawless tribal regions that are close to the Afghan border. On the line with us to talk more about Pakistan, Steve Clemons who directs the American strategy program at the New America Foundation. Good to have you with us Steve.

Steve Clemons: Good to be with you, Dimitry and Bob

WTOP: Are you seeing a change in Musharraf lately? I mean is he more defiant? And if you think he is, what could it mean for U.S. national security and our interests?

Steve Clemons: Musharraf is in a credibility trap. On one hand, both Benazir Bhutto and Pervez Musharraf were looked at by Pakistani citizens as agents of American Interest. And now given the gap obviously in what we want him to do and the current turmoil, he is trying to look as legitimate as possible in the eyes of Pakistani citizens which means putting himself to some degree at odds with what we want but also not putting him in necessarily as strongly supportive of the Islamists and the Taliban that are governing the tribal areas of Pakistan.

WTOP: Now the US understands this to a certain extent…understand the between the rock and hard place position that he’s in so is he doing this with a wink to the Bush administration? Like”let me talk tough for a while but I’m still on your side”?

Steve Clemons: To some degree there is wink but…but not entirely. I think to some degree there is a wink and nod because we know he is in a tough position facing elections ahead. There’s a lot of convulsion in Pakistan right now and we also don’t have any other options. All of the other options to Musharraf right now are bad ones so to some degree he’s taking that latitude and we’re extending it to him but on the other hand we have a credibility crisis and George Bush does as well in you know, having talked up the importance of real democracy, genuine democracy in places in which we provide significant amounts of aid because the president is being forced into a huge position of realpolitik and not of democracy promotion. I think that we’ve got a tough problem with our own citizens in this country sort of shoring up that position.

WTOP: Well there’s a lot of concern about Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan, concern about nuclear weapons and the security of those in Pakistan. We read recent reports about the Bush administration considering expanding authority of the C.I.A and the military really for aggressive covert operations in the tribal regions of Pakistan. Does Musharraf have the power to stop that?

Steve Clemons: I think it would be remarkably destructive if in fact such a penetration of Pakistan happened at this point in these conditions but you’re right. We’re considering it, we’re talking about it, things are very tense. An American Journalist was deported today, Nicholas Schmidle, who had the long piece in the New York Times Magazine, a friend of mine, was deported and expelled, one of the first American journalists to be deported in many many years in Pakistan so things are very very tense in those regions. He was deported after reporting from Quetta---which is essentially about the Taliban out there, operating publicly in full day light and it’s a bit of an embarrassment to the government of Pakistan that this is happening. So things are tense and we don’t know which way they’re going to go but I think that at the end of the day Musharraf and the military, remember Musharraf is not the head of the military now but they guy running the military was his pick and they’re very very closely aligned. I think it’s a very fragile thing for the United States to try and shake up at this point.

WTOP: One more look at the election then on February 18th: the party of Benazir Bhutto, the late Benazir Bhutto and the other main opposition group are predicted to make gains February 18th. Would this mark the beginning of the end for Musharraf politically?

Steve Clemons: Well I think it marks the beginning of more political chaos but it’s done within the boundaries of civil society and that can be acceptable. Steve Coll who wrote the book “ Ghost Wars” on Pakistan and Afghanistan is the president of my organization and Peter Bergen of CNN just returned in the last tow days and they both feel the PPP is going to win enormously in the upcoming elections and don’t see that Musharraf really has a chance to turn that around. So I think what you get is more political gridlock but compared to a political meltdown that might still be okay. I know that sounds odd but nonetheless it’s still, believe it or not, rule of law in a way and not just complete chaos which is the scary alternative.

WTOP: Interesting. Our thanks to Steve Clemons. He directs the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation. He’ll be moderating a panel discussion on Pakistan, Monday afternoon at 2:30PM at the foundation on Connecticut Avenue in DC.

Audio of the interview is attached below.