About this Blog
Direct democracy -- the Switzerland-inspired system of initiatives, referenda and recalls that allows voters to make and repeal laws in 24 states -- is poorly understood. It isn’t even very direct. Direct democracy has become blockbuster democracy: a half-billion-dollar international industry of signature gatherers, consultants, and election lawyers who use ballot measures less as a method of making law and more as a tool of mega-communications to boost some politicians, hurt others, and supplement lobbying campaigns.
Blockbuster democracy is a decentralized business that practices wide-open politics. This blog aims to provide a center of news, analysis and conversation for and about the industry. We will report from blockbuster democracy’s capital -- California -- but we’ll monitor ballot measures from across the country and around the globe.
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Field Poll: Prop 8, California Initiative To Ban Gay Marriage, Trails
No (which is the pro-gay marriage side of Prop 8) had 51 percent and yes had 42 percent in the poll, the results of which are here. While that may seem close, it's very good news for those who support same sex marriage. In ballot measure campaigns, most undecided people break no, and it's much more common for the "no" side to make gains as a campaign progresses. One rule of thumb is that an initiative without at least 60 percent support in the early stages is by definition an initiative in trouble.
Terrific News
Joe:
That is terrific news. Do you happen to know if there was a Field Poll or Polls done in 2000? If so, how did it track?
I am tired of the argument that merely because the voters decided a statute eight years ago that somehow opinions have not changed and the voters also support a constitutional amendment on the same issue.
I believe that human thought evolves over time and voters do not merely "Flip-Flop" when it comes to constitutional amendments (not that I would ever concede that it is an amendment).
I believe that the voters of California have evolved since the Clinton Administration era.
An analysis of the Field Poll in 1980 would be interesting (to me at least) to read.
Prop. 8
Do voters evolve over 1 year? This is the same thing that was on the ballot Nov. 2007 and won by at least a 60% margin. The only thing that has changed is all the pro-marriage agenda is very well funded and it has ads everywhere.
YES ON PROP 8!!!
Prop 8 is a breath of fresh air, a sweet reminder of sanity and clarity in an unsettling California political climate. What does over six thousand years of traditional marriage tell us? It tells us that life is full of right and wrong, black and white, no gray areas, nor moral relativism. It tells each of us that what has worked since the world's creation by God, continues to work today.
Gays have all the same rights granted by the state that normal married couples have, now they wish to stamp out the definition of the oldest institution, even the most fundamental unit of all society. Let us all remember that in 1996, the Senate ruled 86 to 14 in favor of the "Defense of Marriage Act". Bill Clinton, a liberal, even signed it into law. The 86% in favor of protecting what is right and healthy for America may be eclipsed by an even better voter turnout this November to say "YES ON PROPOSITION 8". We have had it! We will take no more of this nonsense! In my city as well many other California strongholds, we go door to door every weekend to rally support of Prop 8. It's working because people are fed up with the constant exploitation by the "Hollywood/San Francisco noise-making, puny minority".
Jared Stucki (A married man from Murrieta, California)
No on Proposition 8
Not too long ago, under the terms of marriage, women belonged to the men they were pre-arranged to marry. Less than half a century ago, people of different races could not marry. Marriage has been redefined several times over in the last hundred years, and hopefully we at least agree that most of it has been for the better.
As for this issue in particular, I'm wondering what exactly Mr. feels the "Hollywood/San Francisco...minority" is exploiting? If it's the 1,100+ rights afforded to married couples that aren't given to gay partners equally committed to each other, well... I guess it depends if you think those rights, when given to a gay couple, are used in a cruel and unjust manner (utilizing the definition of exploitation).
I can't speak much for the Hollywood/San Francisco noise-making minority, but as someone from a small town called Wildomar, right next to Murrieta, I feel pretty comfortable addressing his comments as a recent neighbor who wished he would have knocked on my door... so he could put a face to a person he feels would use the rights of marriage in a cruel and unjust manner. But truthfully, I don't think he'd see many differences between himself and myself. Unless Mr. Stucki isn't a hard-working individual who loves his partner, takes care of his family, volunteers his free time to bettering his community, and is an all-around giving person who has lived by the golden rule since childhood.
You see when I was a kid, I had a natural propensity to defend the children who were picked on for being different... perhaps the "puny minority?" To me, those kids needed a champion, to be protected. And I had the strength of character and quick wit to stand up to the school bully. My mother had raised me to believe we all had value (even the bullies), regardless of our differences. She told me that those differences were what make us unique and there was beauty in that. So while fitting in for me wasn’t difficult (I was, and still am an attractive, intelligent and good-natured individual), but watching those kids struggle was difficult. To this day, I live by the credo I lived by then. If I hear someone I’m spending time with say something disparaging, I’ll smile and politely suggest an alternative. “Yeah, she might look a little funny when she dances, but look at her enthusiasm!”
On a personal level I’ve rarely been confronted with prejudice (or if I was, it didn’t last very long… who we truly are as people says much more about us than the preconceptions of any given adjective). But there is one place in my life where I can’t seem to get a fair shake. You see, when puberty hit, I discovered myself to be in a minority that would define who I was in the government’s eyes, and it would also define the rights I would, or rather, would not be afforded.
I realize that if you aren't born gay or lesbian, you would have absolutely no way of accurately understanding what it feels like, just like try as I may have, I never could "feel" straight (even with it being role-modeled all around me). And because my American dream has a family and a home and a cat and a dog in it, I really did try to be straight.
It felt wrong, in every bit of my being it felt wrong, even with men I adored as individuals and thought to be extremely handsome. In fact, the first time I kissed a woman, I cried because I knew that that’s what kissing was supposed to feel like… the way my friends had described it growing up. It felt like home and butterflies and happiness all rolled up into one. It was the first time I didn’t feel sexually broken; I cried I was so happy. Then, very shortly after, I cried because I knew that most of the people in this country wouldn’t value me the way the kids in the school yard didn’t value those kids who were “different”. I was “different,” and unless I could go to the homes of all 300,000,000 million Americans and let them meet me for themselves, I was going to need some champions of my own if I was going to live that American dream.
I guess in writing this, I'm hoping that there are people out there, even though they might not be gay themselves, who believe that I should have the legal rights to support my American dream, even if it looks a little different to their own. And believe me when I say, it’s only a little different. You know what’s most important to me? Beyond the plethora of financial protections afforded married couples, I want the right to sit by the hospital bed of my partner if she were to get into an accident (or vice-versa). I can't tell you how afraid I am that one day something would happen and I would be denied the right to be that support for her and to tell her I love her one last time. You can call it whining if you want, but anyone who loves someone should know that the thought of being purposefully denied that is terrifying, and worthy of shouting about.
Please hear me when I say I'm not asking for a religious ceremony, or any recognition from a church. But there are over a thousand rights granted to married couples. And if there truly is a separation of church and state... something the Constitution says there is... I don't see why my family should not be ENCOURAGED to be committed to each other and protected by law in the same way our heterosexual counterparts are. I believe that denying my family those rights to be more cruel and unjust than granting them ever could be. Because at the end of the day, Mr. Stucki's entire life will never be turned upside down if this proposition passes, but mine could... and so could the lives of hundreds of thousands of others like me.
I don't believe this is a black or white matter, but I do believe that we as a people should honor the rights of all individuals to pursue happiness as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. Mr. Stucki's marriage (or right to marry) and YOUR marriage (or right to marry) will not change. Honor what you have. I celebrate your right to do so. I'm just asking that you honor who I am as well.
If you are fundamentally unsure of what to do, please don’t vote on this item… reversing it could take my lifetime or longer. If you want to recognize that people like me deserve protection under the law, please vote NO to proposition 8. Oh, and since my job has currently taken me to the state of Rhode Island for the next couple of months preceding the election, if anyone feels like knocking on some doors in my stead, I would appreciate it more than you could possibly know.
Wow Lise!
I had to say that your post was amazing! I have never seen someone write down so much of what I wanted to say and express but didn't have the words to do it. I have e-mailed your post to my friends as it is so inspiring and heartfelt (I hope you don't mind). I find it disheartening though to see how little people are touched or changed by it. These people must be so unhappy with themselves to not be able to sympathize with someone else pain or anguish. Because, let's face it folks, only unhappy people want to make other people unhappy.
Wrong!
Gays do not have the same rights. This about equality - not shoving your religious beliefs down my throat. I am 13 and have two dads who are LEGALLY married in California.
Stop hiding your hate and bigotry behind religion. Jesus was NOT a bigot - but you sure are. Jesus was a liberal!
Prop 8 Opposers are hypocrites
I wouldnt expect anyone under the age of 14 to rationally argue either side of this so...
You realize that homosexual persons in California technicaly have the SAME rights as heterosexuals, right? Even if Prop 8 is passed(to argue that they don't through arguements of "having the right to marry the one they love" uses premises of values and irrational thinking dealing with emotion). Both groups have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex. This matter brought up by same sex activists is nnot a matter of fact or policy on their behalf, its about values. They are fighting to change three-thousand year old practices because of their own values.
On a second note, which has nothing to do with religion and is strictly based on science, heteroseuality is scientifialy 'correct'. Men need women(and the other way around) to reproduce, that is how it is for 99.9% of the species on eart including homosapiens.
If you DO still believe that they do not have the same rights: mentally incapable individuals are not allowed to take on certain tasks, while sexuality can be assigned to genetics as well, homosexuals are denied certain rights.
Look up the word "marriage" in any dictionary.
So here is an arguement for Proposition 8 with facts that nobody can validly argue against with actual facts; vote yes on Prop. 8.
What gay rights activists SHOULD be working towards, and what many gay rights opposers and BOTH presidential and VP candidates also agrees with, is another classification with the same rights for homosexual marriages dealing with marriage(as a law term)as heterosexual marriages.
The only people I can see agreeing with the court's update, are those who put the blame of the economy on the Republics, who actually only hold 1/3 of the 3/3 of the government against the Democrats 2/3rds. Who is at fault for this? The democrats have the extra power to impliment their policies while Republicans need the votes of Democrats. So how does anyone validly state that the blame is on the Republicans? You might as well argue that Barack Obama, who was raised by wealthy Caucasians and whose family has an annual income of about $1,000,000, can connect with the average hard-working Americans.
-From an Independent on both sides.()
"Hypocrites"
Anonymousindependent wrote:
"I wouldnt expect anyone under the age of 14 to rationally argue either side of this so..."
As a teacher with over a decade of experience working with children (mostly middle school children aged 11-14) your comment is not only insulting, but inaccurate. I regularly have debates in my classroom and encourage my students to argue their opinions, whether or not they think others, including myself, agree with them. With the internet and social networking sites, as well as current event assignments in many classrooms, children are very aware of the world around them and very able to form sophisticated, well thought out opinions. Additionally, experience is the best educator and Breanna obviously had the experience to enable her to form a valid, rational opinion.
Anonymousindependent further wrote:
"You realize that homosexual persons in California technicaly have the SAME rights as heterosexuals, right? Both groups have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex."
Separate but Equal was struck down in 1954 and if homosexual and heterosexual marriage are called 2 separate things, they are separate and not equal. And by keeping them separate and unequal, we leave the door open for rights to be taken out of civil unions down the line. As for the 2nd sentence in that comment, no one is asking you to deny any part of who you are. Why would you ask another person to deny him or herself and be anything less than he or she is by saying he or she can only have a marriage if they change themselves?
"This matter brought up by same sex activists is nnot a matter of fact or policy on their behalf, its about values. They are fighting to change three-thousand year old practices because of their own values."
These are the same arguments used during the civil rights movement of the 1960s to deny desegregation and keep African Americans from integrating into white schools. Those good, Christian white folk didn't want their children exposed to any degenerate n***** values. We know they were bigoted hypocrites and that their arguments didn't hold water, but they sure put up a fight.
"On a second note, which has nothing to do with religion and is strictly based on science, heteroseuality is scientifialy 'correct'. Men need women(and the other way around) to reproduce, that is how it is for 99.9% of the species on eart including homosapiens."
This "science" is only true to a point. Yes males and females need each other to reproduce, but that was much more of an issue 3,000 years ago when the infant mortality rate was about 70% the survival of the species was questionable. We no longer have that problem (I cite China's 1 child policy - which btw I do not agree with, but I see its point). And on a funnier note, there is homosexuality within the animal kingdom as well. My cat is gay. He leaves my female cat alone and often tries to mount one of my other male cats. I know it's sexual and not dominance because he only goes after this one cat and he thrusts his pelvis. There has also been research done on homosexuality in the animal kingdom.
"If you DO still believe that they do not have the same rights: mentally incapable individuals are not allowed to take on certain tasks, while sexuality can be assigned to genetics as well, homosexuals are denied certain rights."
First of all, homosexuals are not mentally incapable individuals. All of the homosexuals I have known have been more than competent and have lead extremely productive lives. Second, thank you for admitting that "homosexuals are denied certain rights." This, however, is unconstitutional. Nowhere in the constitution did our founding fathers distinguish between hetero and homosexuals. They were, however, explicit about equal rights for all.
"Look up the word "marriage" in any dictionary."
I'm also getting my masters degree in linguistics, so I can tell you with academic authority that language changes based on how the population uses it. "Bling" is now in the dictionary, even though 5 years ago it was not a word and the word "gay" used to mean happy, but the definition has changed based on society's use of it. As language changes, so does the dictionary and therefore, dictionary definitions are not now, nor have they ever been, nor will they ever be set in stone.
"The only people I can see agreeing with the court's update, are those who put the blame of the economy on the Republics, who actually only hold 1/3 of the 3/3 of the government against the Democrats 2/3rds. Who is at fault for this? The democrats have the extra power to impliment their policies while Republicans need the votes of Democrats. So how does anyone validly state that the blame is on the Republicans?"
The current state of the economy is the result of the deregulation of the past 7 years, for 6 of which the Republicans controlled the government. The democrats came into power in congress in 2006. In 2005 I was offered a subprime loan when I bought my house. I turned it down. However, the wheels came off the economy in 2007 after those 2-3 year teaser rates readjusted. Simple math puts the cause of the problem in 2004-2005, when the Republicans controlled congress and the white house.
"You might as well argue that Barack Obama, who was raised by wealthy Caucasians and whose family has an annual income of about $1,000,000, can connect with the average hard-working Americans."
Obama was raised by a single mother who at times had to get food stamps and who had to fight insurance companies for coverage when she got cancer. He didn't move in with his grandparents until high school, and that was only for a better education. He went to college on scholarships. Additionally, after college, he worked in the poorest neighborhoods of Chicago helping and connecting with the average, hard-working American. As I said earlier, experience is the best educator and means of connecting with people or issues. Obama is the quintessential rags to riches, American dream story who is on the side of the working class.
Call a spade a spade, Anonymous independent. There is nothing in your post to suggest you are anything but a republican.
You end with, "There is
You end with, "There is nothing in your post to suggest you are anything but a republican." Funny thing is even the most liberal senator-Obama-believes marriage is between and a man and a woman. Don't attack republicans when even the democratic nominee is pro tradional marriage.
YES!!! .. IM HAPPY FOR YOU
YES!!! .. IM HAPPY FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY..
Prop 8
I came across your comment about the Prop 8 issue and just wanted to say we are in suppport of this as well! We live in AZ and are hearing and reading a lot about this Prop 8 and wish that there were more we could do to help it pass! We will be praying and hoping for the best outcome which of course is that it passes! Good Luck!!! Thank you for all that you do to support this sacred union between Husband & Wife & God!
Sincerely,
Happily Married Wife to Husband in AZ
Ignorance Knows No Bounds
Congratulations to Jared from Murrieta. He has just surpassed each instance in my life when I thought I had met (or, in this case, read) the most illogical, closed-minded person alive.
Life is full of right and wrong, Jared? That's what the slave owners said. That's what the Spanish Inquisitors said as they ripped the skin from their bodies of those who disagreed with them. That's what the bible-thumping bigots said when they passed miscegenation laws. So good for you -- you're in great company.
Over 6,000 years of traditional marriages tells each of us that what has worked since the world's creation by God -- (which, I'm sure, you have worked out to the exact date) -- continues to work today? Another great argument, Jared. I guess that's why the divorce rate among "normal" people is about 50%, huh? I guess that's why "normal" people (such as the representatives of that beacon of moral righteousness, the Catholic church) are busying themselves molesting children and then hiding behind their sacred robes?
You, Jared, are what we call "a bigot." Get on with your own life and try to live it well. Under your own faith, you'll be paying for your errors in the hereafter. But most of all, stop worrying about other people who don't affect your life and who, I assure you, don't ever have a desire to meet you.
Ignorance knows no bounds
Jake i think you said it better then anyone! Bravo!
Jared You are under informed
Jared
You are under informed and apparently a loud mouth.
Take a look around. We are not the minority anymore.
We expect and demand the same rights provided to everyone and not to be discriminated against due to our sexual orientation.
And since when did Murietta become a "California Stronghold"
Give me a break.
No on Prop Hate
Jared, how many gay friends do you have? None, just as I thought. You see, I grew up around people like you. They are ignorant because they never come out of thier caves to see other people or experience other cultures. I know, you and your God loving friends and family are "The Way". I think not.
You are also ignorant of the facts. We (gays) don't have the same rights as you and your little misses. Maybe, when we defeat this measure, we will have similar rights in California, but not on the federal level. That comes next.
You really don't care about anyone except your own kind because you are made from the same cloth as those that descriminated against mixed couples marrying and women voting. What? you did not know those policies were taken down by honest and sincere voters?
Jared, I'm afraid your state is going down the tubes. You'd better move to Idaho or Montana where you can raise your white, strait kids in harmony with other haters.
You go door to door in your own backward neighborhoods. No wonder you seem encouraged. Myself, I'm taking my disposable income to throw lavish parties for our really rich gay and strait friends to raise more money in one night than you could ever imagine let alone count.
By the way, I live in San Francisco and I assure you, I am not puny. Come on up and visit me anytime.
Prop 8
Traditional marriage? Read your Bible. Biblical marriage was polygamous. (How many wives did King David have? Bunches.) Not to mention the numerous societies which had different forms of or essentally no marriage as we know it.
Also, having follwed the beliefs of the Christian Right for some decades, their biggest arguments against homosexuality was that homosexuals lead a "promiscuous lifestyle", e.g. bars, bath houses, one night stands, etc.
Now that the gay and lesbian community has said "hey - you're right. A stable family life is better" - you want to deny homosexuals the right to create the very lifestyle you claim to support. Do your really think Western civilization is going to collapse because Brian and Joe register at Pottery Barn??
Finally, I do agree that we shouldn't call the state-sanctioned relationship between a same sex couple "marriage" - because we shouldn't call such a relationship between a heterosexual couple "marriage" either. Let's call ALL state recognized relationships "civil unions." Marriage has a religious connotation for many people, and the sanctioning of a religious concept has no place in a secular society. If people want to be "married", go to a church.
Dolores Cordell, Esq.
Leave the name-calling at the door
While Jared Stucki said a lot of inaccurate and hurtful things about gays (He DIDN'T need the name-calling), at least he had the courage of his convictions by signing his full name and saying where he lived.
The response by "Standing up for equality" (i.e., Anonymous) even topped him with negatives by calling him "ignorant," "backwards," and said he lived in a cave. And amazingly, he also said, "your state is going down the tubes." Murietta is IN California, about 460 miles from San Francisco. (That's what happens when you fly off the handle and don't read everything and react calmly.)
All indications are that the Prop. will fail, and a number of states in the country will follow California's "same-sex" marriage laws -- and that's as it should be. BUT you hurt your own cause by getting so ugly and hysterical. (Leave that to the bad guys. Oh, wait, Falwell is dead, and Robertson was never in his right mind anyway.)
CHILL, DUDE. THE HATE WITH 8 IS GOING DOWN.
Bob Church, Petaluma, CA
NO ON HATE! IS ANYONE CALLING OR KNOCKING ON DOORS?
The sanity and clarity of these posts condemning 8 is encouraging. Bigotry, homophobia, and all their kindred shades of hatred are the shadow of our world; that this prop stems from hatred is so obvious when you consider that legalizing gay marriage will have no deleterious effect on ANYONE. No direct effect WHATSOEVER, in fact, on anyone who isn't gay. The supporters of 8 are operating from fear and hatred. I always find it so ironic -- and disheartening -- that people use religion as a platform from which to launch their hate.
It worries me that these closed-minded people are stumping door-to-door for the ban -- fueled by their vitriol and positioning this beast as pro-family and pro-child. Please. How on earth does my marrying do anything to destroy their families? They're doing a fine job of that without my help. Perhaps this legislation could do its part to chip away at the hatred and separateness to make the world a kinder place for their poor, brainwashed kids. (These folks think this will prevent their kids from being gay? It'll just damage the kids to know their parents worked so hard to be sure any hope for their living in a world of equal rights was quashed.)
Could this nasty prop sneak up from behind and pass? I'd like to know if anyone knows of groups knocking on doors or placing calls to educate and persuade voters about the importance of this next wave of equality. I'm not typically a joiner, but I'd love to step onto a few porches and do my part to try to dislodge some dangerously retro thinking.
C. Moore/Los Angeles
Prop.8 Opinion; more than just gay marriage at issue...
Proposition 8 is more than about allowing same sex marriage. It's a backlash over Californians having their vote ignored, and the last vote on this issue 10 years ago was a super majority and had passed the courts muster for constitutionality issues, or it would not have been on the ballot then. Now, after 10 years as the law, the left leaning loosing cry babies went over the peoples head and into the untrusted liberal courts of the left coast and they overturned the inititive from 10 years ago. The courts have done this before with the death penalty and Prop. 208 when again a super majority of California citizens vote was usurped by a 9-judge panel over riding the will of the people. Well, Californians have been pushed to their limit and are fighting mad. We impeached Rose Bird over the death penalty years back and now it's time for another lesson to our courts. If Prop.8 passes and it looks like it just may, placing this inititive into the State Constitution will by pass any court in the land. Further more, any gay marriages held between the time the courts threw out the law and November, if passed, will be null and void, oh yes, the inability of a man marring a man may have been thrown out by the courts but the Constitution still states laws must be amended by the law makers and this old law still remains on the books intact since the courts usurped the will of the people. This means any marriage between same sex couples will be null and void once Prop 8 passes, since the courts only can interput the law not change or make it, that right is for the legislators, and nothing has changed in California law since the courts had their say. Think I'm lying, read the Constitution for yourself, the old LAW is still intact on the books. This because their wasn't enough legislators to vote to change it.
So, if the anti-Prop 8 advocates are so sure of this Prop. 8 not passing, then why are they raising so much money and effort to fight it? Maybe because they're still in the minority of how Californian's think on this issue. Watch the moral citizen California voters come out of the wood work this November election, angry and ready to fight to keep their votes intact. And when Prop.8 passes, the fight will be over for good and not even the courts will be able to do anything. Perhaps it's time for more judges to be impeached next? Just my opinion, or perhaps it's above me "PAY GRADE".
In the 60s, interracial
In the 60s, interracial marriage support was 60/40 against.
Our legislature and governor at the time had the intelligence to see that this was full of hatred and bigotry and moved to change it.
But politicans aren't what they used to be, thats for damned sure.
Polling now finds its 50/50 on Gay marriage in california.
And as for your bogus crap about out-of-state people funding Prop 8, you may wish to note that more money is being poured in from out of state - for the Yes campaign then there is for the No campaign.
In regards to this forum
I love how pro-prop8 arguements state facts, while those agaisnt prop. 8 just sound like an angry mob of 13 year olds(Breanna proves the latter of this point).
You're Kidding, Right?
What I love is how pro-Proposition 8 arguments resonate with the same conviction, and use many of the same arguments, used by slave owners, by Mary Tudor (aka "Bloody Mary") as she was burning all those nasty Protestants at the stake, and by countless other misguided souls whose own lives were so meaningless that they felt the need to "save" the rest of us. You bigots have made me ashamed to be an American. (Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Michelle Obama.) No wonder the entire civilized world laughs at us.
But just as supporters of slavery and Bloody Mary are now considered bigots and morons by history, so will you and you ilk. It might take a hundred years or so, but it's a foregone conclusion that history will judge you as the small-minded fools so many of us already know you to be.
One undeniable fact is that gays are much more highly educated and have, per capital, vastly more disposable income than non-gays. Therefore, you may be able to deny them their rights for another few years, but they can outspend you 100 times over. So, the next time you're scratching your crotch and staring at that old washing machine sitting in your front yard, think of all those unmarried gay folks sitting on the beach in Waikiki, sipping pina coladas.
No on Prop 8
Here is a general question: Gay marriage in California has been legal for several months now. Has the world stopped tilting on its axis? Has the apocolypse come? Has God strucken with his mighty wrath? No.
And on a personal level, to any one who is married in a male-female marriage: Has your marriage been affected in any way since gay people have been allowed to marry? Of course not!
Marriage is a very personal thing. And we as a society don't need government (much less religious groups) telling us who we can love. Frankly, it's no one's business except the couple getting married.
Two weeks from Friday, I'm going to marry my partner of 13 years and it will not affect anyone but us. We, as a couple, will be better for it. And California, as a community, will be better for it. But at its very core, marriage is personal and private.
Congrats!
Congrats Richard! My dads got LEGALLY married on Friday!
Prop 8
You say that no one is affect by gay marriage except the couple getting married? This is NOT exactly true, research this before you make such a statement! Here is something that was just made known to me today, go to this link and you will see exactly how much everyone is affected by such. http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1815825713
Good News!
Good news for my family!
No on Prop 8, and its not against religion, learn your Bible
All these religious hypocrites first of all need to learn separation of religion and politics. And more importantly, its bad enough forcing your religious views on others, but its even worse that you twist the words of the Bible to force wrong views. The Bible doesnt have one passage condemning homosexuality. All the passages are cited out of context and refer to idolatry, rape, etc, not homosexuality. Any informed religious Christian would know this. Learn your Bible before forcing wrong views. Oh and i thought id like to throw this out. You remember how many people were for racism? Remember they shot MLK? Remember how all that happened and racism was defeated for the most part? Guess what, people are becoming more open minded, as people are accepting homosexuality. Even if by some miracle this passes, mark my words, you are delaying the inevitable. Learn your Bible and its true stances on homosexuality: http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Heights/2554/kallos/bchtext2.html http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=10620&pid=805 http://www.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html http://www.christchapel.com/romans_inter.html There are many more links that give the truth. Viewing those passages by scholars in context of others and the times. So do you support racism, bigotry, inequality? Do you want to be considered a hypocrite (which Jesus hated btw) and go to hell for twisting the words of the Bible? Then vote yes. However, if you are against racism, bigotry, inequality, and support God, vote no on prop 8 like i am and many others i know. We are also doing as much as we can to get people voting no on prop 8.
No on 8 !!!
You know...I've been married for 12 years. I have a great wife.....3 sons....a cool dog. We have a great life. It really couldn't be better. Our kids were baptised. I wish everyone the same happiness we have had in our married life. If a man/man want a shot at married bliss. Go for it. If a woman/woman want to do the same. Have at it. I am voting NO on 8.
People who discriminate...who claim to know the mind of God...who wish to punish and exclude roughly 10% of our society.....ARE SICK PEOPLE.
In 20-30 years you will all look as outdated as those horn-rimmed, bun-wearing racists who protested black boys and girls going to a white school in the 50's.
You've always been here and will be for a lot longer but people who choose LOVE AND ACCEPTANCE will always have something you won't.
As a straight brother to my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters....KEEP THE FAITH. We're getting there.
peace
Thank you for voting NO ON 8
Can't imagine why anyone could think they are "protecting" marriage by discriminating against loving couples who want to get married. It's sex-based discrimination, and it's wrong.
No on 8, please.
What's so funny 'bout peace, love, and understanding, anyway?
Keeping The Faith
First, I have to speak to John Shermer. When I read your post I nearly welled up. This kind of unconditional love of humanity is nearly unheard of in this society that we are trying so hard to protect.
And to Breanna who at 13 (through the love of her two dads) understands more about love than many people ever will.
A couple of points: This is not/cannot be made a religious issue. The founders of this country were God fearing and they had the foresight to realize a need for seperation of church and state. So, let's seperate it. You know the commercial: "You can't have both."
If it's the lingo we're worried about, maybe the first step is no one should be able to get "legally married." But anyone can have a "civil union." If you want to incorporate religion in your union, have a religious ceremony. Then, when you're all done, you can tell people you're married.
If you do your historical research on this "sacred institution," as several people above have, we realize that we as a species need to evolve from time to time. And I agree with pp, these changes have by far been keepers!
C'mon folks. Let's do it. Let's evolve together!
Prop 8--YES--support women's rights
Yes on 8. I am so surprised that no one sees that this is about women's rights. After 15 hours of labor, I EARNED the right to be called Mother on that childs birth certificate. Not "partner" or "parent" as will certainly be the next step. This is about robbing women of their rights as mothers. It has taken women years to gain rights and now to throw it all away is a shame on California.
Prop 8 about Equality -- not women's rights
Cathy said on Oct. 7th:
"After 15 hours of labor, I EARNED the right to be called Mother on that childs birth certificate. Not "partner" or "parent" as will certainly be the next step."
What about heterosexual couples who adopt? Does the woman not have the right to be called "mother," even though she has just committed the rest of her life to raising, loving, and supporting (financially until age 18 or beyond and emotionally for life) that child? And what about the father who didn't go through 15 hours of labor? Does he earn the right to be called "father" simply because he was present at the conception? Your comment is actually a backwards step for women, suggesting that men should get the same rights with less work and less pain.
And what about the negligent "mother" who may have spent 15 hours or more in labor, but doesn't provide the necessary love, nurture, and commitment to raise a happy, protected, and well adjusted child? Parenthood and motherhood have less to do with blood and birth than they do with love, nurture, and commitment. Don't sell adoptive parents of any gender or sexual orientation short.
<rolling eyes>
Cathy --
Your argument is so beyond nonsensical that it barely merits a response. I will limit my comment to thanking God that you're not my mother, or related to anyone else I know.
P.S. As for your 15 hours of labor, get over it. Lots of women lose their babies. So stop patting yourself on the back for your great accomplishment -- (Wow, you can breed like all the other animals! Aren't you amazing?!) -- and thank God your kids came out okay (notwithstanding that they have you to call "Mother").
While I agree that everyone
While I agree that everyone should be equal in all things, I also believe that no one's particular beliefs should be pushed on another person/group. I just have one question about prop 8 that I have yet to find the answer to, will a vote "no" cause religion-affiliated places to be required to marry gay couples against their beliefs? If they refuse, will they be stripped of their non-profit benefits?
--Concerned Californian
Here's Your Answer
JC -- Thanks for being one of the few people to ask an intelligent question in a non-offensive manner. From everything I have read on this topic (and that's a lot), the answer is a resounding NO. Same-sex marriage is currently legal in California. Have you heard of one church being forced to marry a gay couple, or losing their tax-exempt status for refusing to perform a gay marriage? No, you have not heard of such a thing because it hasn't happened.
A "No" vote on Prop. 8 merely preserves what is currently the law. And, as someone pointed out, gay marriage has been legal in California for a few months and, so far, God has seen fit not to smite the land!
Concerned Californian's Question is the Tip of the Iceberg
First of all, Proposition 8 is not a "ban on gay marriage." That is a fallacy, and it is a deliberate misuse of terms in order to confuse. If Proposition 8 is passed, no legal mechanism to ban or to punish the various gay and lesbian 'households' will exist. Nor is there any means by which a so-called ban could be enforced.
Proposition 8 does not care to; it is not designed to offend anyone or to show less respect towards anyone.
No one can prove such an intention by the wording of the proposition.
"It contains the same 14 words that were previously approved in 2000 by over 61% of California voters: 'Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.'"
Those are all the words of Proposition 8. Nothing more, nothing less.
Gays and lesbians have every right that everyone else has. But what they don't have the right to do is to change the basic definition of marriage. No matter how hard they try such couples can not produce children. There is no sense in pretending about what marriage is. Children can play house. Business partners can draft contracts that protect and share their assets. Gay couples or lesbian couple can do both and whatever else they like in the privacy of their homes. Every other right defined by the U.S. constitution is already granted to every U.S. citizen.
The real question is not, "Why do you people want to be so mean and not let gays marry?" but rather, "Why does this tiny percentage of the population think that it has the right be like heterosexual "equal" to heterosexual when they are not? Gay is gay. Heterosexual is heterosexual. Heterosexual couples produce children and can give them a real mommy and daddy. Gays can not. Lesbians can not.
Why is there such an effort to argue for rights when rights are not the issue. This debate has been purposely muddled. Gay sex is gay sex, it can never be the same or "equal" as sex between a man and a woman.
Therefore it does not deserve special protection. (Still, no one is talking about banning anything either, are we?) On the other hand, families that do not want to be forced to have these unusual practices touted as "normal." Normal is normally what the vast majority of people consider normal. It not normal because people SAY something is normal, but because the NORM has withstood the test of time. Everyone born is the result not of gay or lesbian sex, but the result of normal, heterosexual sex. Yes, and the vast majority people with their actions as well as their words have confirmed that marriage is between a man and woman.
It is not just gays who do not have the right to redefine marriage,no one does. It is what it is, just like only water is water. It is really that basic, and no one intends on offending or discriminating by stating what marriage is.
real mommy and daddy
Your argument is ridiculous. You say gays and lesbians can't marry because they can't have children and be a "real mommy and daddy"?
What about single parents? What about women who choose to use donor sperm to have children? Should that be outlawed?
What about infertile couples, or couples who are too old to have children? Should they not be allowed to marry?
Should we outlaw divorce, because then children aren't raised in a home with a "real" mommy and daddy?
What about widows and widowers? Should their children be put up for adoption because they don't have a "real mommy and daddy"?
Civil marriage is a creation of the state. As a democracy, we DO have the right to define it, and redefine it. If a particular church doesn't want to sanction certain marriages, that's their right, but the state of California and its people have the right to treat gays and lesbians equally under the law.
My feelings and thoughts
First, many congrats to Breanna and her 2 dads. I recently married my partner of 12 years and hope that eventually the Breanna's and John's of the world will help us journey closer to a world of love, tolerance and understanding.
Cathy - read some history regarding "womens rights" - this concept barely existed before the 1900's.
Thanks to some very brave and outstanding women in the past century we have made some progress towards "womens rights". Suffragettes who fought for women to have the right to vote and not to be considered property of a man, were subjected to much cruel and inhumane treatment for their efforts. It is very sad that now some women may use that right to vote to exclude a right from others.
JC - I do not believe failure to marry same sex couples will result in loss of tax exempt status for churches - any more than they lose this status now if they refuse to allow a person who doesn't at least give lip service to believing in whatever their creed is - to marry or whatever in their places of worship.
I would love to see just how far an amendment to ban divorce would get - divorce is a far greater "threat" to "traditional marriage" than a same sex couple being allowed to marry.
No research has evershown that balanced teaching a child of any age about gay or straight marriage will warp them in any way. Only learning hate and intolerance will do that. The majority of homosexuals were raised in families with "traditional" marriages. Children of same sex couples do not become or "choose" to become homosexual at a higher rate than those from traditional marriage.
Prop 8 is based on fear and ignorance.
Vote No on 8
Proposition 8 is a Win-Win for GLBT activists.
If Proposition 8 fails – hurray. One more state down, 47 to go. If it passes – the Religious Right's homophobic campaign will have successfully knocked down an enormous hornet’s nest. In one day, they’ll create thousands and thousands of brand new GLBT activists.
GLBT’s who have never donated a dime or a day to GLBT activist groups (like www.soulforce.org) will for the first time realize the importance of donating and volunteering, because they’ll have just had their own marriage license TAKEN from them. But the thousands of newlyweds won’t be the only newbies to join our activist fight. People all over this country will witness, for the first time in American history, a minority group of people have one of their RIGHTS taken away with legislation. Folks, it's one thing to change state constitutions to PREVENT minorities from getting equal rights, but taking away a minority group's equal right that they already have is a whole different ballgame. Doing something like that will wake a sleeping giant. Americans all over this country will be shocked and outraged. It will be the perfect storm, and Hollywood will be all over it. (What a bonus that this is happening Hollywood’s home state. Haha) I’m very excited about California's Proposition 8 vote.
YES ON PROP 8
Proposition 8 is not about gay discrimination in fact it is reverse discrimination and will take away our rights, just another thing that is making America one step closer to being a socialist country where minorities decide what the rest of us have to believe. although 61% of California voted to ban gay marriage 4 judged decided to take away our voice and legalize it. There is so much ignorance out there! We all want equality, that everyone has the same rights, look at this link and see what has happened to people so far because of their religious conviction.
A gay companionship holds the same legal benefits as any married couple here in California. If Proposition 8 passes Kindergarden teachers would be forced to indoctrinate students that it is something normal. Such is the case with this family
You what?????
Just how exactly is me being married to my partner of 12 years whom I love dearly discriminating against you???? What right does it take from you?????? Please explain.
If majority rule is all that is important then anything a majority wants is fine by your rules. For example: What if the majority decided that slavery was something they wanted - would that make it OK - I think not. What if another religion becomes the majority - for example Mormons, and vote that everyone (Mormon or not) must tithe 10% (or whatever % it is) of their income to the Mormon church..... Would you be OK with that? No? You want everyone to live the way YOU want them to live.
You have the freedom to believe whatever you want, but don't try to tell me I can't have something you have, with the person I want to have it with. I pay my taxes. The rights may be similar (but read up on it - they are NOT exactly the same) in California, but without Federal recognition (for example), I can't get the same benefits. I pay tax on the partner health benefits I get through my employment here in California - a married person doesn't have to....there are other missing pieces too.
Where exactly does the kindergarten curriculum state that teachers should be teaching - never mind indoctrinating - children about marriage gay or straight???? Teaching one religion in schools - how about that for indoctrination.....
I encourage you to look beyond the empty and hateful rhetoric you spout and look at the facts.
no on 8
y cant people be with teh person they love and if u vote no then i hope u dont vote for obama cuz obama say no on prop 8!!!
I'm a Christian, and I'm voting NO on 8
I'm a CHRISTIAN and I'm voting NO on 8.
Why?
Because it seems that all the funding has come from false Christian groups like ROMAN CATHOLICS and "MORMONS" both of whom are idolaters (worshiping Men, Mary, beads, little statues of saints, etc).
IDOLATRY is a worse sin. Voting yes on 8 supports idolatry.
No On 8!!
IS SO SAD HOW YOU POPLE WANT TO PASS A PROPOSITION THAT WONT AFFECT YOU! YOU PEOPLE ALWAYS USE THE BIBLE TO GO AGAINST SOMETHING OR JUDGE FIRST OF ALL GOD DOES NOT WHAT YOU TO USE HIS NAME TO JUDGE LET HIM JUDGE NOT YOU! HAVENT YOU READ THE PART WERE IT SAIDS NOT TO USE HIS NAME TO CONDENM?? NO HU? YOU ONLY READ WHAT EVER BENEFITS YOU!! FIRST OF ALL LETTING GAYS MARRIED WONT AFFECT YOUR LIFE AND PASSING THIS PROP WILL AFFECT THE AFFECTED. RIGHTS AND BENEFITS, SO MANY FAMILIES POBLABLY ALREADY STARTED THEIR LIFES AND THIS WILL DEF AFFECT THEM, ALONG WITH THOSE WHO ADOPTED A CHILD OF ONE OF YOU PROP 8 SUPPORTERS.
PROPOSITION 8 TO DEFEND MARRIAGE BETWEEN A MAN A WOMAN RIGHT?
1.WHAT ARE YOU GUYS DEFENDING? THAT 1 OUT OF EVERY 2 STRAIGHT MARRIAGES ENDS UP IN DIVORSE?
2.THAT HALF OF YOU PEOPLE COMMIT ABORTION BECAUSE IT WAS A OPPPS??
BEFORE YOU GUYS WANT TO DEFEND YOUR MARRIAGE BETWEEN A MAN A WOMAN WHY DONT YOU PEOPLE WORK ON MAKING MARRIAGE WORK? YOU PEOPLE ARE THE ONES MAKING MARRIAGE LOOK BAD!
Prop 8
I have been reading all of your feelings on Prop 8. Has anyone of you stop to think about what this could mean? Have you stop to look at what this could do to the next generation of children. By not passing Prop 8, you will open a whole can of worms on marriage. Why should it stop at same sex marriage? Why not mother to daughter, father to son. sister to sister or brother to brother or mother to son or father to daughter. Are we going to say next "What ever feels good do it?" Just because it may feel good at the time, does not make it right in the long run. Look at what you are saying and what this could become. And don't tell me it could not happen. 30 Years ago same sex marriage would have never been put out for a vote. We are surely Trashing generation to come. And why do Gays always turn this into a hate issue? I don't hate anyone who is Gay, I have Gay members in my family allot of them. They will be Voting Yes on Prop 8. They said they just don't see a need for this. They have all the rights that non Gays do and are happy the way things are. God Help us all.
REPLY
REPLY TO UPPER COMMENT.
okay you are saying about future generation and how this is gona affect them right? but please lady think!!! there are worst issues out there!!! look at all the voilence and sex out there! so please answer this
for example you know alot of kids are being dumpt by their parents? ending up in foster care and pretty much growing up alone.. alone children there with dark futures because i bet is so cold and dark not having a family.
this lonely kid gets adopted by a les couple and wow know this kid has family.
then this kid starts school andknow finally a family and social life with friends at school, is it ok that kids at school will be making this child feel he has an weird family or make this child feel different because he has 2 mommys? is it fair??
You dont think this child has suffer anough pain? and know he has to deal with people making him/she think she is different? is it fair???
you dont hink this child needs some relief? istead of having this supposibly christians telling this child his moms are going to hell?
if we dont pass this prop is not for all those gay people to get married but also for those kids that are teased at school because he/she has 2 mommys or 2 daddys. If we keep telling this discrimantion people are never gona accept!! and sorry to said prop 8 is not gona make gay people go away!
i really think we could be worry about other things, all this money spent for prop 8? and all this other issues way more important. worrying so much about this prop and kids at school are leaning worst things? look how many drug addict criminals out there and you are worry about gays!! wow people open you eyes!! please..
Prop 8
You are right there are bigger things to worry about in this world of ours. We should be thinking about, whats going in over seas or whats happening in the white house or Green house gases or how about the lack of rain in california and things like that. But stuff like that I can't do much about. And just so you know I have 3 grandkids that I am taking care of and keeping them out of Foster care and one of them is mentally ill, he is that way because of Drugs, Alcohol and being hit senseless by his father when he was 3. So you don't have to tell me about all the foster kids and what goes along with it. We live it each and every day. All I am saying is we need to take care of what we can and that begins in the home. I don't care what people do in there bedrooms, Just keep it there. Homosexuality is a moral issue that familys should teach to there children,in what ever way they see fit. Morals and Values are what we see as a foundation to our integrity, what we stand for. We teach this to our children help them face this life with some help. We just don't send them out as soon as they can walk and say "Here go figure it out on your own". Nature has set a pattern as to the way life should be. NO two things of the same sex can procreate. The Patter was set long ago for us to follow. I don't feel its right for man and man or woman and woman to be together sexualy. But I do feel they have the right to do what every they think is right for them. They have there freedom to do so, I should have my freedom to do the same. I teach my children the ways of the lord, one woman and one man did he create to multiply and replenish the earth. By not passing Prop 8 you take away my right to feel and believe this way. I will be told what and how I should teach my children about homosexuality and how it is OK. What right do gays have to take away my rights?
REPLY
HOW CAN YOU COMPARE BEING HOMOSEXUAL TO mother to daughter, father to son. sister to sister or brother to brother or mother to son or father to daughter, are you kidding me? that just tells me the type of sicko you are..There is no comparison.!!!!!!!!!!
Prop 8
I am not a sicko! I am a mother of 5 gradmother of 11 and I am raising 3 of my GrandChildren to keep them out of Foster care. As for What you said. Yes it could lead to that. If you look at one of No on Prop 8 adds. They state "Everyone one should be able to marry anyone they wish too" That is what Prop 8 will open up the USA too. Anyone marring anyone. We have to stand for something or fall for anything!
no on 8!
I really hope god helps you!! i think you are the one that needs a prayer.
comparing being gay to doing things that make you feel good? making it seem like a father getting with his daughter is the same as being gay or lesbian?? oh my god.. I will be praying for you, you say you have gay family memebers and that u love you gay family members so u dont really love them at all. voting no on prop 8 is not to change any definition of marriage or change or upset anyone but no on 8 we need to stop making people feel their are aliens from the moon. These people are humans just like you and me and no on 8 is to bring all us together i dont think our god wants u to make anyone feel different. Things are not changing see the answer is gay people have been around for ages but people were in the closet gays have been here for ages but they were just scare to come out..
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